Believe it or not, it’s the Wheel of Time Reread Redux! We never thought we could feel so free-ee-ee!
Today’s Redux post will cover Chapters 27 and 28 of The Great Hunt, originally reread in this post.
All original posts are listed in The Wheel of Time Reread Index here, and all Redux posts will also be archived there as well. (The Wheel of Time Master Index, as always, is here, which has links to news, reviews, interviews, and all manner of information about the Wheel of Time in general on Tor.com.)
The Wheel of Time Reread is also available as an e-book series! Yay!
All Reread Redux posts will contain spoilers for the entire Wheel of Time series, so if you haven’t read, read at your own risk.
And now, the post!
Chapter 27: The Shadow in the Night
Redux Commentary
“Are all women crazy?” Rand demanded of the ceiling.
No, but this particular one is definitely not helping to dispel the stereotype. At All.
So basically every single thing Selene says and does in this chapter would have made me want to slap her into next week if I were Rand. Well, if I were Rand and not also hopelessly incapacitated by lust and chivalry, I suppose.
But man, even if I were deliriously attracted to her I think I’d be pissed, because oh my God. Once you know she is Lanfear, of course, her behavior makes sense (or at least is only annoying in the sense of “could you be any worse at undercover work, seriously”), but in Rand’s shoes? All I would see is a screamingly oblivious civilian who could not be more obstructionist or disrespectful of the situation—or Rand—if she tried. She would drive me insane, and I honestly can’t decide whether to be impressed or annoyed at Rand for not letting her infuriating nonchalance get to him as much as it would me.
But, as I pointed out in the original commentary, at least Rand is finally starting to get at least a little irritated with her. Too bad it’s not enough to do any good until the cat’s out of the bag anyway.
Reluctantly, Rand formed the void. Saidin shone at him, pulled at him. Dimly, he seemed to recall a time when it had sung to him, but now it only drew him, a flower’s perfume drawing a bee, a midden’s stench drawing a fly. He opened himself up, reached for it. There was nothing there. He could as well have been reaching for light in truth. The taint slid off onto him, soiling him, but there was no flow of light inside him. Driven by a distant desperation, he tried again and again. And again and again there was only the taint.
I remember that when I first read this it quite strongly freaked me out, in a way which probably has to do with my not-always-that-latent compulsive need to conserve the cost/benefit ratio, if that makes sense. Which is to say, I was exceedingly dismayed not so much that Rand was getting taint crap all over him, but much more so that he was doing it with no benefit to show for it. If he had actually succeeded in wielding saidin here I would have been much less upset about it.
Or, in video game terms, I was upset that he was taking damage without gaining any XP, because that shit is not acceptable. This also gives y’all an insight into my probably-maddeningly conservative style of gameplay. Look, I just want ALL the level-ups and ALL the ammo and ALL the healthpacks before I go in against a boss, okay?
Hi, Aludra! Who would have guessed you were more than a once-off character from this scene? Not me, that’s for sure.
Rand studied the open area, recognizing almost nothing. In the middle of it, several dozen upright tubes, each nearly as tall as he and a foot or more across, sat on large wooden bases. From each tube, a dark, twisted cord ran across the ground and behind a low wall, perhaps three paces long, on the far side. […] He eyed the tall tubes warily, remembering the bang made by one the size of his finger. If those were fireworks, he did not want to be this close to them.
Probably one of the smarter things Rand ever thought to himself, really.
In the original commentary I talked about the myth that the Chinese had had fireworks for centuries before they used gunpowder as a weapon, which I’m now fairly certain is completely and totally incorrect. And, incidentally, it’s a myth which I’m also now fairly certain I didn’t actually learn in school at all, because I have recently been reminded of the rather large number of hilarious factual errors about the world I acquired as a child as a result of reading the original Ripley’s Believe It or Not. On reflection, I’m pretty sure that’s where I got the “fireworks before weapons” thing from.
(Though admittedly, some of the “errors” were more due to me not understanding about the consequences of reading a “fact book” published in 1929 than them being actually wrong. My mother takes great glee in recalling how I had earnestly informed her—sometime in the 1980s, mind you—that the youngest living Civil War veteran was now 69 years old.)
But ANYWAY, so that is all a moot point now, but I did like what I said about it in the original commentary, enough that I’m going to quote it to you because I do what I want:
[…] in any case even if it’s a complete urban legend (so to speak), the fact that the idea exists and that many people believe it to be true means it’s perfectly fair game for Jordan to use in WOT, since Jordan not only doesn’t need legends to be true, it’s actually cooler when they kind of aren’t.
Dat’s wight, wabbit.
Chapter 28: A New Thread in the Pattern
Redux Commentary
“What would I not give,” Verin murmured, gazing up at Urien, “to have you in the White Tower. Or just willing to talk. Oh, be still, man. I won’t harm you. Unless you mean to harm me, with your talk of dancing.”
Urien seemed astounded. He looked at the Shienarans, sitting their horses all around, as if he suspected some trick. “You are not a Maiden of the Spear,” he said slowly. “How could I strike at a woman who has not wedded the spear? It is forbidden except to save life, and then I would take wounds to avoid it.”
Your mission for this post, if you choose to accept it, is to ponder why Urien’s brand of chivalry, as defined here, does not annoy me, when Rand’s concept of chivalry (as we know) most distinctly does.
(It’s not hard to figure out, at least I don’t think it is. But I remain surprised at the number of people who insist that such things must be an all-or-nothing proposition or it’s Just Too Complicated! All I say to that is, beware of the person who wants to make everything simple.)
Anyway, this chapter manages to pack in an awful lot of exposition/world-building for being so relatively short; it’s pretty impressive. Mostly concerning the introduction of the Aiel, of course, and giving us the first hints of how they will tie into the larger happenings of the Dragon Reborn. All of what Urien says or alludes to here is extremely old news to me now, obviously, but I can still see the shape of how tantalizing this must have been to read the first time, when up to this point the reader only knows the Aiel as mysterious background figures, who are tied to Rand in (thus far) mostly inexplicable ways. As the title of the chapter implies, we’re given a new thread to add.
Which is great, but doesn’t leave much ground to cover otherwise, which is probably why I decided in the original commentary to talk about the folly of not allowing for any flaws whatsoever in a piece of art. But I think I expressed my thoughts on that pretty well the first time so, er, I don’t need to talk about that either, except to say that “puppies farting rainbow sparkles and winning lotto tickets” may be one of my favorite phrases I’ve ever written for this thing. Heh.
So, randomly, we end with:
Ingtar let his horse fall back beside Perrin’s. Sometimes, to Perrin’s eyes, the crescent crest on the Shienaran’s helmet looked like a Trolloc’s horns.
Nicely subtle foreshadowing, there, don’t you think?
And, that’s what I got for this one, I think. Be excellent to each other, O my Peeps, and I will see you next Tuesday!
I will try. Urien acknowledges the difference between civilian women and soilders. He won’t harm the former but he will the latter. Rand trys to treat the maidens differently because of their gender.
In many ways how Lanfear is interacting with Rand and trying to manipulate him during TGH is similar to how she tries to manipulate Perrin in AMoL before finally having to use compulsion on him. At their core, both Perrin and Rand have similar outlooks on life. I do not think, however, that Lanfear could have successfully manipulated Mat. By his nature, he is too suspicious. I wonder if that was a character trait that Mat had from birth or an after affect of carrying the dagger. I think it is more the latter than the former.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
I was going to say the same thing as 1…and also that he apparently is willing to do it in order to save lives, which Rand seemed to struggle with quite a bit.
Did we ever determine why Rand wasn’t able to seize Saidin in Chapter 27?
Wow. It wasn’t Aludra who came up with the idea of dragons (as in cannons), it was Rand, way back in TGH. Although Aludra probably saw what Rand did with the fireworks mortar, and she certainly enhanced and perfected the concept later. Totally missed this in previous re-reads.
And speaking of art. Ahem. I expect I could sift through numerous posts to find the answer, but one of you may know off-hand. That is supposed to be Selene in Darrell K. Sweet’s cover illustration (as shown above), yes?
@@.-@ I assume it’s just because Rand hasn’t had any teaching yet. He’s reaching and missing, but getting some good ol’ taint splashed on him.
Elayne @@@@@ 1: Got it in one. No pun intended.
@1 and 6
Maybe I just misread their conversation, but chivalry (in the classical sense) even enter in to Urien’s explanation?
I thought more than Verin’s being a woman. Urien wouldn’t want to see her hurt in combat because as an Aes Sedi, she is the equivalent of a Wise Woman.
We all know that up until the very end of the series, Wise Women were strictly neutral non-combatants in regards to all Aiel conflicts. They could even freely move between the tents of the Wise Women of various clans in blood feuds with their own at will.
Striking out at them isn’t just attacking a civilian (bad enough), it’s the equivalent to a professional solider attacking a civilian who also happens to be the red cross medic treating your own people.
The sequence of Rand reaching for the source, trying and failing, but getting the Taint on him nonetheless, is tremendous imagery. Also impossible to capture on film. This is fantasy’s great disadvantage compared to sci fi, dystopian, superhero, etc. movies.
Regarding the gunpowder thing, as was his wont Jordan both pulls from a real myth and puts in the work to make it plausible–a combination of an effective and ruthless guild and fear of anything that smacks of the One Power.
@@.-@: so, dragons were invented by the Dragon? Nice…
So Fain was in charge of the Trollocs in Cairhien? It must take powerful mind control to make Trollocs pretend to be puppets and make humans carry them. (The other puppets must’ve been pretty realistic, for the ruse to have worked at all) I think it’s the last time we see Trollocs used in any kind of subterfuge, instead of straightforward attacks.
I recently discovered a TEotW first-read deconstruction blog, which starts here: http://somethingshortandsnappy.blogspot.com/search/label/Wheel%20of%20Time?updated-max=2014-11-02T23:40:00-05:00&max-results=20&start=7&by-date=false . I’m a little scared about sharing it here, as the original poster and many commenters are harshly critical of the book’s style and substance. But I passed much of it off as YMMV (can’t relate to someone who dislikes large amounts of descriptive prose), and enjoyed reading many discussions about the logistics of certain details.
@9
Yep, but he didn’t run with the idea. The recoil knocked him right on his rear. Heh. I thoroughly enjoyed re-reading Chapt. 27. There’s tension moderated with humor.
leighDB
That one was easy-peasy.
Where are Parts 14 & 15 in the index? It’s jumping from 13 to 16.
My guess: it has to do with Urien’s qualifiers. The idea of attacking a woman shocks him unless she is wedded to the spear or unless it is to protect his own life. Rand has no “unless,” which ultimately brings more harm than good. To his definition of chivalry, all women fit under an umbrella “must not harm or allow to come to harm.” In fact his main recurring argument with the Maidens is that he refuses to acknowledge that they made a choice to become warriors, and that trying to protect them from danger is an insult.
Would using ordinary fireworks as a cannon without preparation work? When Mat later enters the Stone he does prepare the fireworks for his purposes, but Rand just accidentally lights fireworks meant for a show.
Why does Ingtar assume that something that is called Shadowkiller and killed Trollocs is a creature of the DO and not an enemy of the Shadow? If it is a man and not a monster (as Perrin says he might be) there is no reason he should be evil.
It doesn’t make sense that the Shienarans travel for many days wearing armor and only take it off when they reach another country, especially since they are in a hurry. It’s not really surprising that the Darkfriends, who are not burdened by armor, can travel faster. Of course in many fantasy novels knights always seem to run around in full armor without dying of heat stroke.
@14 birgit
The very first cannons and hand cannons were horribly unreliable and apt to explode in the gunners’ faces. They were more of a shock and disrupt style weapon than a massive infantry killer. That role was still left to the crossbow for centuries after the first cannons were introduced.
Firing rockets and such into enemy ranks would do plenty to spook horses, burn soldiers and generally sew chaos. But it took the invention of wood and bronze cannons for them to begin having truly deadly effects.
The thing that makes explosives deadly is the pressure wave (stupid movies think it’s the fireball but it’s not, many truly devastating explosions don’t even have one because of the oxygen displacement).
For an explosion to kill, that pressure wave needs to hit something while it’s still carries it’s highest levels of kinetic energy. When the pressure wave is contained into a small area and/or forced into a single direction, it becomes exponentially more effective. That’s also why Mat’s little box stuffed into a small hole in the outer wall worked so well at the Stone.
Technically you can set off a small firecracker on top of your outstretched bare hand and get away with only a mild burn (still not a good idea). If however, you’re stupid enough to light that same firecracker then close your fist around it, it will destroy your entire hand.
As far as the Shienarans, Whether their armor is on or off, they are mounted cavalry and the horses are still carrying the weight of the gear. The only way they could gain more speed would be to ditch it entirely.
I remember Rand thinking that the Trolloc puppets were awfully designed a couple chapters ago. Either the Trollocs are wrapped up in the puppeting material (doesn’t sound like fun or good for fighting), or Rand has awful observation skills. Also, why didn’t he just attack the Trollocs in one direction? For how easily the fight against the first one went, you’d think that he wouldn’t get forced out of the city.
@10 I read all the posts about the TEOTW on that website you linked and I think the writer made a few interesting points but was overall blinded by his bias. For instance, his reading of all the characters as very light skinned. Rand is supposed to be noticeably lighter than the rest of the Two Rivers folk, but he didn’t really take note of that.
A few other points of his are clarified by putting together information from future books. It doesn’t make sense that a pale skinned, red-haired group of people live in the Waste… until you learn that they fled there after the Breaking. I agree with him that the first book is in general very Euro-centric and borrows a lot from Tolkien however.
Lastly, Jordan plays around with third-person limited, in that he doesn’t strictly write WoT from that perspective but he presents information and world-building through a VERY strong hearsay lens. 75% of what the people of Randland say or believe are objectively wrong, and the times when they have something right, they frequently misuse or misinterpret it. Take this very chapter that Leigh covered. We meet our first Aiel and he’s not black-eyed at all. In fact, he seems quite the opposite of almost everything we’ve heard about Aiel except that he seems to be very dangerous. Still noteworthy to point out that no actual violence occurs here, not against our protagonists nor anyone else.
We, as the more omniscient readers, are supposed to understand to a certain extent what is true, false, and hypocritical. I find it amusing for instance that someone commented on one of those posts that there’s a lot of men thinking, “women are all like this”, and women thinking, “men are all like this” without taking the next logical step and realizing that both sides are being presented as immature and wrong.
Lastly, on a different track: I find it interesting the way Perrin seems to be at one with his Wolfpowers here, and the way he finds casual acceptance from Ingtar. Perrin’s arc is still rubs me the wrong way on earlier re-reads. I definitely think Jordan didn’t have a clear enough vision for him. I don’t think he was just making it up as he went along, but there’s a lack of focus even in hindsight that isn’t present for most of the other main characters.
@10
Did not like that blog. Too critical without having read the rest of the books. Critical just for the purpose of being critical and polemical.
I also disagreed with much of it — except about the book’s best scenes being set in the Blight, natch — but enjoyed some of the conversations on nitpicky details and broader themes. (And hadn’t written off TEotW as an echo of Fellowship of the Ring on my first read, which took place before I read Lord of the Rings). It did make me question the wisdom of rigorously “deconstructing” a book while reading it for the first time. First-reads can produce excellent commentary and critiques, as we all know, but it’s preemptive to proclaim a story element worthless without knowing the context in which it may eventually play out.
As has been said before, Verin could not be harmed because she was a. a non-combatant (woman), b. a Wise One. Aiel seem to have a fairly equal society in this way, where certain professions, more than genders are “out of limits”. IIRC, even an Aiel blacksmith cannot be harmed, even though he is a man, while a Maiden is a fair game. So, not exactly Chivalry.
Rand, on the other hand, thinks in the traditional Chivalrous ways, women = don’t harm, men = fair game.
What makes Aiel society even better at combat is capturing your foe is considered better than killing him/her. I guess you can see how that would evolve from a constantly changing relations between the tribes, and the bigger enemy (desert) constantly around them.
I think there’s a difference between using fireworks as a weapon, and using them as an effective weapon. There’s a difference between throwing a firework at people with a catapult and possibly blinding them, and having something with shrapnel aimed at them from a distance.
I think Urien’s brand of chivalry is clearly better mainly because it is not condescending. Urien is like, whatever happens, there’s things I will do and things I won’t, and you being whatever isn’t going to change that. Rand’s tends to be that the moment he discovers there’s a woman somewhere, he’s going to make all the decisions for her and take all the risks for himself, though she has given no inclination she wanted any of that. Assumed gender roles running rampant I suppose, whereas Urien isn’t really giving a fig about that. The behaviour of both is strongly tied to their cultures, Aiel and Two Rivers, but the Aiel culture does not denigrate women. (Though it’s implied Two Rivers women don’t feel they’re being denigrated.)
So much work keeping me so busy and tired…but I am getting caught up on all these chapters if it kills me.
I always wondered whose idea it was to have Trollocs posing as puppets; I’d guess Fades, since the Darkfriends would probably be too afraid to dare suggest such a thing and Trollocs wouldn’t listen to them anyway. I also thought it interesting, in retrospect, how everywhere Rand turned there seemed to be Trollocs, herding them away from the inn and Hurin until they reach the chapterhouse wall. It reminds me a great deal of TFoH where, no matter which way he went, Mat ended up being herded into the thick of battle until he ended up facing Couladin (and beginning the Band of the Red Hand). I would guess this is because the Pattern needed this to happen, to destroy the Illuminators guild and give Aludra the impetus she’d need to fight the Seanchan and create the dragons later. (Of course it would be the Dragon Reborn to indirectly cause this!)
We also have the fun bit with Selene. Aside from it being more obvious than ever she’s more than what she seems (the mysteriously open door, how Tammuz and Aludra somehow don’t see them, her suddenly disappearing from the alley were Loial took her), we get foreshadowing of the bit with Silvie in the next book, with Lanfear appearing as the old woman at the inn. And I always got a kick out of how Rand kept refusing to conform to Lanfear’s conception of Lews Therin and annoyed the hell out of her in the process. Even her “every time I think I know what you’re going to do” bit has aspersion in it. Hah! I have to imagine that the reason Rand doesn’t object more, aside from his chivalry and any possible One Power influence on Lanfear’s part is that he’s used to women acting like this toward him. Especially Aes Sedai, which…Lanfear can deny she’s one all she likes, but she’s not doing a very good job of avoiding their foibles.
There’s also the side bit with poor Loial and the Trolloc. If only he knew how much more killing of Shadowspawn lay in his future…
Nice hint, BTW, at the Lews Therin memories already beginning to surface, with Rand remembering a time when saidin sang to him.
The only comment I’d make about the fireworks/weapon usage and the myth about the Chinese is that while it not being true IRL certainly does play into Jordan’s concept of legends and cyclical time, it does leave it odd that no one before Rand (and later Mat) thought of using gunpowder as a weapon–especially if the myth being untrue means the Chinese did in fact figure that out pretty quickly. I mean, if the Illuminators kept the secret to themselves that would explain why no one else thought of it, and I guess if they were determined to keep it for entertainment uses only (some very intelligent high-level Illuminator might have been wise enough to not want to see what would happen if it were introduced into warfare), that covers the rest of the matter. But still…
The interlude with Urien is one of the reasons people later thought Verin was Nakomi. I’m still not sure who she was–a Jenn, the Creator’s avatar, something else–but I think I have to agree it wasn’t Verin. While unlike some, I do think Verin cares about more than just Rand and the Shadow (as a Brown she wishes to arm the world with knowledge, which means she has to care about all peoples of the world to some degree), I’m not sure if her interest in Urien here is enough to show she’d be willing to pose as Nakomi. She’s excited yes, but that is a cross between being a Brown again and the fact all Aes Sedai are interested when they find evidence of channelers in other cultures, and while she also shows interest in the Aiel when their prisoner after Dumai’s Wells, that again seems academic rather than something she’d want to focus that much time on. If anything from this scene it seems she cares about the Aiel as much as she does because she can tell (like Perrin and Mat) that they are somehow tied to Rand…and it concerns her what this means for the Pattern, since she wants to do all she can to make sure Rand wins and not the Dark One. I suppose if she had determined the Aiel needed to change in order to be there for Rand and save the world from the Shadow (and even after the Last Battle), she would then step in to make sure they did via Aviendha, but…I’m not sure even she had enough evidence to conclude such a thing about them.
Rand’s name among the wolves is awesome. Really, all the names the wolves have for people and creatures are pretty awesome. They know how to name things.
I was never bothered by the continuity gaffe either. Though really Urien’s words are pretty vague; he didn’t say Verin looked exactly like a Wise One, just that she had “something” of their look (probably meaning in this case that she looked younger than she really was due to slowing, rather than the Ageless look).
And yeah, not seeing why anyone (unless they were being deliberately obtuse or trying to set up a straw man) would not see the difference between Rand and Urien. Because quite obviously not wanting to hurt any woman ever, and doing everything he can to keep them from harm, is very different from specifically not choosing to harm a woman who has not chosen to be a fighter and thus indicated not only her willingness to bring harm to others but that she is accepting the risk which comes from entering combat at all. Although in this case it’s less about women than about combatants vs. non-combatants, but in the end it still comes down to choice. Urien is choosing not to harm anyone (including women) who haven’t tacitly given permission by entering combat, while Rand is using his wish to not see women come to harm to keep any woman, combatant or not, from ever being hurt no matter what she wishes in the matter.
That was very nice foreshadowing regarding Ingtar, I never caught that before. Also interesting that he didn’t recognize the old Aes Sedai symbol, when Borderlanders are the ones closest to and most reverent toward the Aes Sedai. But then most Aes Sedai themselves aren’t familiar with it (or don’t talk about it if they are), with Verin knowing because she’s Brown. So there’s that.
@2 AndrewHB: Interesting point. I’d say that Mat is innately suspicious/distrustful (being a trickster himself), but the dagger probably made it worse. And yes, her methods with Perrin and Rand are very similar, which means we really should have seen what she was doing with Perrin sooner.
@7 wcarter: While the main issue is combatants vs. non-combatants, I think you’re right to point out Verin being an Aes Sedai/Wise One too.
@9 scm: Yeah I noticed that too. Considering how much long-term planning Jordan did, including with the dragons, he must have had that in mind when he wrote this scene, which means he was probably chuckling at his own cleverness.
@10 AeronaGreenjoy: Oh I didn’t think of that. Yeah, Fain being the one behind it makes more sense now.
@14 birgit: Maybe that’s a sign of his Darkfriend nature? Or due to his experiences along the Blight he thinks no ordinary Light-following mortal could engender such fear from Shadowspawn.
@17 givemeraptors: Good point. But to be fair, Perrin doesn’t really have a choice but to accept it at this point due to the absence of Hurin and how badly they need to find Rand and the Horn. Note that as soon as they’re all together again, he recedes back into the background. Also, Ingtar may accept him but he dies at the end of this book, so there goes someone who accepted him unequivocally. And finally, it’s in the next book that Perrin gets told about wolfbrothers by Moiraine (in her usual unhelpful fashion, but also because she just plain doesn’t know much to help), and encounters Noam. It’s this which sets the stage for his angst later on, and it makes sense that those encounters would upset any previous tenuous acceptance Perrin may have had.